Arminianism | Today In Theology

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Posted by kangaroodort - March 25, 2008 on 4:51 am | In Arminianism | No Comments

Happy Easter

Posted by kangaroodort - March 19, 2008 on 7:17 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

Synod of Dort

Posted by kangaroodort - March 18, 2008 on 6:16 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

Paul’s Sock Puppet Show?

Posted by kangaroodort - March 13, 2008 on 10:26 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

Calvinist Humility Displayed

Posted by kangaroodort - March 11, 2008 on 5:20 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

Interesting Church Sign

Posted by kangaroodort - March 11, 2008 on 3:58 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

What’s on Deck?

Posted by kangaroodort - March 10, 2008 on 10:29 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

Early Spring Cleaning (Taking Out The Trash)

Posted by kangaroodort - March 7, 2008 on 6:51 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

Leaving The Play Ground (For Now)

Posted by kangaroodort - March 3, 2008 on 5:05 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

More From Paul and a Public Appeal

Posted by kangaroodort - February 29, 2008 on 5:57 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

More on Calvinism and Sanctification

Posted by kangaroodort - February 28, 2008 on 8:27 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

John 6 and Related Passages

Posted by kangaroodort - February 26, 2008 on 6:18 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

Clarifications and Rebuttal: Responding to Paul Manata

Posted by kangaroodort - February 25, 2008 on 3:44 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

For Those Who Care

Posted by kangaroodort - February 22, 2008 on 4:16 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

Examining Inconsistencies in Calvinistic Monergism Part 2: Sanctification

Posted by kangaroodort - February 19, 2008 on 5:16 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

Amen to That!

Posted by kangaroodort - February 15, 2008 on 8:41 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

Examining Inconsistencies in Calvinistic Monergism Part 1: Intercessory Prayer

Posted by kangaroodort - February 13, 2008 on 9:32 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

Mace to You?

Posted by J.C. Thibodaux - February 11, 2008 on 7:11 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

Perseverance Of The Saints Part 5: Hebrews 6:4-9

Posted by kangaroodort - February 7, 2008 on 6:23 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

Those in Glass Ivory Towers Shouldn’t Throw Stones

Posted by kangaroodort - January 31, 2008 on 6:19 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

Arminian Rant on the Ordo Salutis

Posted by kangaroodort - January 29, 2008 on 9:12 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

I’m Working On It

Posted by kangaroodort - January 28, 2008 on 4:47 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

Dealing With a Libertarian Determinist?

Posted by kangaroodort - January 26, 2008 on 8:30 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

Christocentric like Barth

Posted by kangaroodort - January 25, 2008 on 10:53 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

Tackling Tough Calvinist Questions

Posted by J.C. Thibodaux - January 18, 2008 on 4:35 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

Provisional Atonement Part 1: Dealing With John Owen’s Arminian Dilemma

Posted by kangaroodort - January 15, 2008 on 9:50 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

Upcoming: Perseverance of the Saints Parts 5 and 6

Posted by kangaroodort - January 11, 2008 on 4:01 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

Series on Election

Posted by kangaroodort - January 10, 2008 on 1:30 pm | In Arminianism | Comments Off Billy of Classical Arminianism is doing a great series on election at his new website. Be sure to check it out.

Election and Predestination- Life in the Spirit

Posted by kangaroodort - January 10, 2008 on 5:43 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

The Bronze Serpent Explained: A Monergist View of Divine Healing

Posted by J.C. Thibodaux - January 9, 2008 on 9:04 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off And the LORD said unto Moses, "Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived." (Numbers 21:8-9)

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:14-15)

[Scene: The border of Canaan near the land of Midian, two Israelite men from the tribes led by Moses and a silent young woman all stand at a high point and look out over the promised land]

Zimri: Ah, finally on the border of the promised land!

Carmi: Yes, we've come a long ways.

Zimri: Now we get to enjoy the good part. Been quite a journey here, hasn't it?

Carmi: Indeed. We've known nothing but the desert our whole lives.

Zimri: Yeah, the was was pretty dangerous too, but God's been faithful to deliver us, even when we failed Him. Remember that time we all complained so much against Moses that God sent those vipers into the camp?

Carmi: All too well...

Zimri: But even then God's mercy was amazing; when Moses put up that bronze serpent, all we had to do was look at it and God cured us. It was awesome, all God asked was that I look up and acknowledge my need for His help, and He healed me.

Carmi: But, what you are in effect saying is that you cured yourself.

Zimri: Cured myself? What are you talking about?

Carmi: I'm saying that you hold a man-centered view of divine healing, and lack vital understanding as to how God cured us.

Zimri: Vital understanding?

Carmi: Yes, when God delivered those He wished to from the serpents, He did so all of His own power, with no inherent cooperation from those bitten. This important teaching is commonly called the doctrine of snakes.

Zimri: You lost me. How did I cure myself?

Carmi: Looking up at the snake, in your beliefs, is something you did, and therefore you caused your own cure.

Zimri: That seems to be a bit of a stretch. God was the one who gave the cure, and commanded Moses to put up the bronze serpent, all he told us to do was look at it and-

Carmi: But looking at it was a work, it was something that you did.

Zimri: Wait, now looking is work? Remind me not to wake up on the Sabbath.

Carmi: Since it was you who effected the condition, it was in essence you who effected the cure.

Zimri: So you're saying God just gave us the power to cure ourselves or something?

Carmi: Oh no, not at all. God had to revive you before you could look up at the snake at all.

Zimri: Revive me?

Carmi: Yes, you were actually already dead from your snake bite.

Zimri: Dead, like hyperbole 'dead?' Like a Genesis 20:3 'dead man?'

Carmi: No, literally dead.

Zimri: Like, "I am dead Horatio" dead?

Carmi: No, dead as in 'physically decomposing' dead, and therefore totally powerless to do anything but be a corpse.

Zimri: Uh, I don't recall this.

Carmi: Of course not, you were dead at the time.

Zimri: Oh right, right.

Carmi: And because you were already dead from your snake bite, you weren't capable of looking up at the snake, so you had to be brought back to life to do so.

Zimri: Well, I was certainly pretty delirious and weakened from the venom, so I have no problem buying that it was God who gave me strength to look up....

Carmi: No, no, God didn't merely give you strength to look at the snake, He irresistibly changed you so you would both be capable and irresistibly drawn to look up at the snake.

Zimri: Changed me?

Carmi: By reviving you of course.

Zimri: Ah.

Carmi: It's called the 'irresistible snake.' So you were literally dead and helpless, but God brought you back to life so you would be able and willing to look at the snake. See, it's written right here, "...and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived."

Zimri: Um, isn't that saying that the people who looked at the bronze serpent survived?

Carmi: No, it's saying that those who lived, or rather were brought to life, looked on the bronze serpent.

Zimri: That sounds a bit backwards. It seems that our living was contingent on looking at the bronze serpent, and I distinctly recall feeling the effects of the poison subside when I looked at it, not before.

Carmi: Your mistake is a common one, but your being revived, cured, and looking at the serpent all happened at the same instant in time, it's simply a logical necessity that your being revived came first. You have to study and think about it real hard for a long, long, long time before arriving at this important truth.

Zimri: I'm sure you do.

Carmi: Of course you being a Phinehasite wouldn't understand it.

Zimri: A what?

Carmi: A Phinehasite. Followers of the beliefs of Phinehas, you know, Aaron's grandkid - the priest.

Zimri: Oh, him.

Carmi: He holds to the heretical view that those bitten by the snakes weren't yet completely, physically dead, but merely had the sentence of death working in them. Phinehas is under the delusion that he wasn't irresistibly compelled to obey by being literally resurrected, but thinks that he somehow just 'cooperated' with God in performing the impossibly difficult task of looking up at the snake so that he could be healed! And since he believes that he had to make some kind of decision to look up (obviously a work meritorious beyond imagining), he is therefore robbing God of the glory in healing him! So anyone who believes that free will plays any role in divine healing is a Phinehasite.

Zimri: I barely know Phinehas, much less studied anything he wrote or said.

Carmi: Doesn't matter, you still fall into that category. If you don't believe in totally monergistic divine healing, then you're automatically a Phinehasite of some kind. Of course, Phinehasism is really just semi-Nimrodism, and everyone knows that the Phinehasism eventually leads to either spirit channeling or sun worship, as that's really what consistent Phinehasism amounts to....

Zimri: And I have no idea what you're talking about.

Carmi: Hopefully God will reveal it to you and save you from your Phinehasite blindness. In fact, here's a list of scrolls I recommend you read on the subject that will give you a better understanding of monergist divine healing and the Phinehasite error.

Zimri: So if God actually revived us so we could look at the serpent, then why did some people stay dead from the snake bites?

Carmi: Because God didn't want everyone to look at the snake. God only intended that certain people look at it.

Zimri: Really? I didn't get that indication at all.

Carmi: God's ways are very mysterious.

Zimri: Yeah, but Moses invited anyone who was bitten to look at it.

Carmi: Yes, that was the 'outward hiss' but not the 'effectual hiss.'

Zimri: The what?

Carmi: God only wanted certain people to be cured, so He made only a limited amount of antivenin,

Zimri: I wasn't told this.

Carmi: -then He chose certain people to be cured and let the rest die.

Zimri: Ah, so He chose them because He knew they'd hear and respond?

Carmi: No, He chose them from eternity past based on nothing whatsoever about them, then after they died from the snake bites, He revived the ones He chose so that they would both have the innate desire and the irresistible unction to perform the action of looking up at the bronze serpent, thereby receiving a dose of the limited supply of antivenin that He'd prepared beforehand.

Zimri: Where exactly are you getting all this?

Carmi: I...it's...it's so elementary, even a child could see it.

Zimri: But, didn't He say that anyone who was bitten could look and be cured?

Carmi: Oh He did, but that was God's "I don't really mean this, I just say stuff like this to relate to people" will talking. In God's "super-duper-secret really, really I actually mean this" will, He didn't really want everyone who was bitten to look at it, and hence wouldn't revive them, which is why the antivenin was limited.

Zimri: ....This seems like a somewhat overly complicated system of beliefs.

Carmi: Well it has to be true, otherwise you must logically have cured yourself.

Zimri: Hmmmm...I see. So since the antivenin is limited, then what if I get bitten by another viper? Could God not cure me?

Carmi: That's the best part. The fact that you were cured of your snake bite guarantees that you will make it into the promised land.

Zimri: Really?

Carmi: Yes, it's like a divine seal of approval. To those who have been chosen and cured, God has unconditionally chosen to provide final entrance into the new land.

Zimri: I seem to recall Him listing some stuff we'd better not do, as well as what would happen if we disobeyed....

Carmi: Oh that's just something God's "I don't mean this" will says to goad you into living right. It's all up to His sovereign "super-duper-secret" will really.

Zimri: Hey, that kind of makes sense. I mean, He wouldn't have cured us if He'd wanted us to die in the desert.

Carmi: Exactly. While being brought to life again will certainly make you want to avoid future snake bites, there's no actual chance for you to fall short of entering, even should you run across every viper this side of the Jordan. You can rest in complete assurance that you will make it through.

Zimri: Oh wait, but I'm pretty sure I've seen a few of the people die who had previously been cured.

Carmi: They were never really cured. The belief that they were actually cured stems not from objective observation, but the influence of biased Phinehasite teachings.

Zimri: But they were, you know, walking around with no apparent problems.

Carmi: God provided them with a temporary means to give the illusion that they were alive and had been cured, so that we and even they thought that they were, but the fact that they have failed to make it to the promised land demonstrates that they were never truly cured.

Zimri: How could they think they were cured, or even move around at all if they were already dead?

Carmi: That- ...That's a mystery.

Zimri: So if someone might be walking around like they're perfectly healthy, but in reality still be poisoned, and dead no less, then isn't it possible that you or I might not really be cured as well?

Carmi: Technically, yes, but unlikely; and if you aren't truly cured there's nothing you can do about it anyway, so you really shouldn't waste time troubling yourself about such things.

Zimri: Wow, that's a relief. I was kind of worried about bringing this Midianite chick back to camp with me. If I didn't know for sure that God was going to preserve me, I'd be scared of what Phinehas might try and do.

Carmi: I for one find it hightly doubtful that he was ever cured in the first place.

Zimri: You're definitely right on that one. He is so man-centered. Come on Cozbi, let's get to the camp. I'll show you the Tabernacle.

Wrapping Things Up With Gordan on John 5:40

Posted by kangaroodort - January 4, 2008 on 12:45 pm | In Arminianism | Comments Off Gordan posted a response to my latest post concerning our discussion on John 5:40. He made the point to me that our dialogue was becoming cumbersome due the length of our responses. He suggested a cross examination to narrow the focus and end the exchange. In private e-mail we agreed that a cross examination would not be feasible due to time constraints and other factors. I offered to write a final response to tie up some loose ends with regards to his latest response. I promised him that it would be my last post on the subject and offered to give him the final word at his post. Gordan decided that he would rather let me wrap things up over here instead.

I will not be quoting from Gordan in this post in order to shorten its length. If you are still interested in this exchange then I encourage you to read his latest response here to get the proper context for this post. I appreciate Gordan and all the guys at Reformed Mafia. They are passionate about Calvinism, but more importantly they are passionate about Jesus. I will only be addressing a few of his points below:

Regarding reductio ad absurdum:

Gordan spoke of real and genuine life in Christ beginning at an eternal decree. I mentioned that such a position was absurd and would amount to eternal regeneration of the elect. In his response, Gordan contends that he was positing this idea to demonstrate the absurdity of my own position. The problem is that it was never my position that the life of John 5 could refer to any kind of life. My argument was that it referred to the specific new life in Christ that includes and begins with regeneration when one comes to be in union with Him through faith. The person who was contending that the scope of life could go beyond what I was claiming for it was Gordan. In fact, that was his main argument and the comments concerning real and genuine life in Christ beginning at a decree of predestination was taking his position to an extreme and not my own. The only position, then, that Gordan reduced to absurdity with his comments was his own.

Now I think I understand what Gordan meant and said that I believed he misspoke. Gordan affirmed that he does not hold to a position of eternal regeneration, but that does not change the fact that the language he used says exactly that. If real life in Christ for the believer begins at an eternal decree, then we can only conclude that the believer has been regenerated from eternity. Gordan points us to Ephesians where Paul says that we were chosen in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world. This passage, however, does not help him for it does not teach that believers were actually in Christ prior to creation. It only teaches that God determined from eternity to elect believers in Christ. Election is in Christ and only believers come to be in Christ. Real and genuine life, however, does not begin until one believes and is sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13). For Eph.1:4 to support Calvinism it must read �chosen to be in Him� but it does not. It can only refer to God�s eternal decree to elect believers in Christ. The only other option is to adopt the position that the elect were in Christ from before the foundation of the world, which would mean that the elect have always been alive in Christ, even prior to being born, which is plainly absurd and unscriptural.

Regarding the need for justification, and therefore faith, to precede life in Christ:

I stated that to assert that regeneration precedes faith is to have sinners attaining spiritual life prior to being justified. I explained that we would then have sinners having life prior to being forgiven on the merit of Christ�s blood. Gordan refers us to OT saints, saying that they were saved before there was any blood to apply. I agree that OT saints were saved prior to the cross, but they were still saved on the merits of the blood of the Lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world. Gordan would seem to agree. The point to remember, however, is that the OT saints were justified by faith (in a proleptic manner), and could not attain life until God made them righteous. By faith they drank of the Spiritual Rock that is Christ and attained life in Him.

Gordan raises an interesting point regarding John the Baptist being filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb. Union with Christ through faith is the God ordained principle for those who are old enough to exercise faith. Faith cannot be the condition of union with Christ for unborn and small children who lack the capacity for saving faith. Many Arminians and Calvinists believe that children are under grace prior to an age of conscious and deliberate rebellion (an age of accountability). If that is the case, then it is possible that this grace was applied to John in a proleptic sense to empower him for the unique ministry that God was preparing him for. The fact remains that for morally accountable adults the Scriptures clearly teach that one comes to be in union with Christ by faith and not before.

Regarding temporal order:

Gordan contends that part of my problem is that I am looking at this in a temporal sense. That is not the case. I am concerned with the logical order. That is the same thing that Calvinists are concerned with when discussing the eternal decrees. These decrees can have no temporal order, but they must have a logical order. This order is what separates infralapsarian Calvinists from supralapsarian Calvinists. Calvinists also generally have only logical order in mind when discussing the ordo salutis. That is the case with Arminians as well. I believe, with Gordan, that faith, justification, and regeneration happen instantaneously with regard to time. The logical order, however, is still significant. If it were not, then why is Gordan insisting that regeneration precedes faith? Our positions could be stated as follows:

Arminian: The moment one believes, he or she is regenerated.

Calvinist: The moment one is regenerated, he or she believes.

Gordan tells me that there is no causation in the text of John 5:40. He tells us that we are reading into the text by saying that �coming� in faith precedes having �life�. I agree that there is no causation there because I do not believe that faith causes regeneration. God causes regeneration when a sinner meets the God ordained condition of faith. That seems to be plainly implied when Jesus says, �you will not come to Me so that you may have life�. One must come [in faith] to receive life. I see an order of events there. If Gordan does not, then I don�t know what language could improve on it. We will just have to agree to disagree on that one.

Regarding a wooden use of metaphors:

Gordan agrees that the language of John 5:24, and 25 is consistent with regeneration. He argues, however, that there are other metaphors for regeneration besides spiritual resurrection, and gives some examples. I don�t see how this invalidates the fact that John 5:24, and 25 is using a metaphor for regeneration. To say that there are other metaphors for the same thing does not help things.

I am intrigued by one of his examples. He cites the example of the Lord opening Lydia�s heart to respond to the gospel. He concludes that �opening the heart� is another metaphor for regeneration. Remember that Gordan�s entire argument boils down to saying that my claims that the life Jesus speaks of in John 5 includes regeneration are inconclusive at best; this despite the context containing plain regeneration language [or metaphors]. I cannot think of a more ambiguous passage that Calvinists use to defend irresistible grace than Lydia�s conversion. The text says that the Lord opened her heart so that she could respond to the gospel. The text does not say that the opening of her heart made her positive response inevitable. It is also worthwhile to ask if the heart the Lord opened to respond was Lydia�s old heart. The text gives no indication of a new heart being opened. If it was her old heart that was opened to respond to the gospel then this account beautifully portrays the Arminian understanding of enabling prevenient grace.

The point is that the context and language of John 5 seems to me to be far more conclusive than that of Acts 16:14 which Gordan has no problem seeing as a definite example of regeneration. Surely there is a lesson here for both of us concerning the ease by which we allow our biases to effect our exegesis.

Gordan also insists that I am being inconsistent by holding a wooden view of the spiritual resurrection metaphor in John 5 while making light of the dead in sin metaphor that Paul employs. Arminians do not try to water down the �dead� of being dead in sin. What Arminians try to do is understand it in a Biblical framework and consider carefully what spiritual death means. There really is no contextual warrant for correlating spiritual death with the inability of a corpse. There is good reason to view it in the context of separation from the spiritual life that can only be found through faith union with Jesus Christ. I would contend that it is more accurate to say that Calvinists use this metaphor in a way that the Scripture never intended, rather than saying that Arminians try to downplay the metaphor. Many Arminians would fully agree with the Calvinist understanding of dead in sin while laying the emphasis on the power of God�s grace to overcome that inability. In any case, I just don�t see any ambiguity in the description of passing from death to life and experiencing a spiritual resurrection in John 5.

There is much more that could be said, but I will leave it there. Gordan has given me the last word so I will not over do it. I am flattered that he thought my arguments were worth his time and I have enjoyed the interaction. We may disagree on the particulars of how God goes about saving sinners, but we are both in agreement that we owe everything to Christ and His amazing grace.

Kang-er-oodort: An Important New Years Resolution

Posted by kangaroodort - January 3, 2008 on 10:17 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off I�m embarrassed to admit that without spell checker I�d be a mess. My mother was always a stickler for spelling while my father used to begin romantic letters to her with, �To my darling angle�.

Unfortunately, I have followed more in my father�s footsteps than in my mother�s. I am always improving but I am amazed at how often spell check keeps highlighting the same words that I have persistently spelled wrong. You would think I�d learn after a while.

A word that has been particularly challenging for me lately is �certain�. I really don�t like the �a� before the �i�. It just seems to me that it should be �certian�. I am glad to report, however, that I have finally conquered this word and can now spell it correctly most of the time without spell check.

Most embarrassing for me has been the fact that I spelled the �kangeroo� in my screen name wrong from the very beginning. I realized this a while ago but by then I had used it enough that I didn't know how to fix it without drawing attention to my stupidity. I tried to think of some clever reason for using �er� instead of �ar� if someone should call me on it, like: ��because you�ll end up in the ER if you mess with me!�, etc. I eventually decided against that approach, since it was a bit dishonest, not to mention corny.

What surprised me the most is that no one ever pointed out the spelling error. I can only think of three reasons why that would be the case:

1) Those I have corresponded with are very kind and polite and didn't want to embarrass me.

2) They foolishly thought I had a good reason for spelling the word wrong.

3) They don�t know how to properly spell �kangaroo� either.

I like #3 the best as it makes me feel a little less stupid. In any case, I have resolved to spell the word right from now on and I want to publicly thank anyone who knew of my spelling blunder but was classy and kind enough to let it slide. For those of you who fall into the #3 category above I encourage you to admit with me that you didn't have a clue how to properly spell �kangaroo�. It may not make you fell any better, but I assure you it will make me feel better.

Gordan Takes Another Shot at John 5:40

Posted by kangaroodort - December 28, 2007 on 5:14 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off

Updates

Posted by kangaroodort - December 18, 2007 on 9:24 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off I will be away from the computer for the Christmas break so there won't be any new posts at least until I return (sorry Nick). After the holidays I hope to finish up the series on perseverance with a look at Heb. 6 and 10. I also want to take a closer look at the provisional nature of the atonement.

I wanted to say "Merry Christmas" to all my readers and a general thank you to all of you who have taken the time to read this blog and interact on it. I wish I had more time to devote to it because it has been a source of learning as well as [hopefully] an opportunity for some sound Biblical teaching from an Arminian perspective.

God Bless,
Ben

Theological Question To Chew On

Posted by kangaroodort - December 17, 2007 on 9:58 am | In Arminianism | Comments Off Studying the atonement can be mind numbing. We all generally believe that Christ died for our sins. That is the common ground. The difficulties reside in the details. How does Christ's death translate into forgiveness of sinners? Why did the Father accept the Son's sacrifice in our stead? What exactly was accomplished at the cross? Did Christ literally "pay the price" for our sins in a quantitative way? Was Christ truly "punished" for our sins, or did He just "suffer" for them? Was anyone actually saved at the cross, or did the cross provide for salvation?

We could add many other questions. I personally believe that the penal satisfaction view of the atonement has the most explanatory power. That does mean that it perfectly represents the Biblical revelation of Christ's atoning work. It would appear to be quite arrogant to believe that a certain view of the atonement perfectly captures all that the Bible has to say on the subject.

Some Calvinists believe that Arminians cannot consistently hold to a penal satisfaction view of the atonement. I believe that such an assertion is due to a misunderstanding of Arminian theology and I will deal more with that subject in a future post.

The purpose of this post is to get a little discussion over a teaching that has often attached itself to the penal satisfaction view. Did God the Father turn His back on the Son at the cross? Was Jesus literally separated from the Father when the sins of the world were laid on Him? When Jesus cried out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" was he truly forsaken at that point?

I have heard many claim that Christ was truly separated from the Father at this time and that this separation was a necessary part of the atonement process. F. Leroy Forlines makes the interesting claim that the temporary separation of an infinite being [like Christ] from the Father was compensatory to the eternal suffering of finite beings. In other words, humans owe an eternal debt because we have offended an eternal God. Since we are finite, the only way to pay an eternal debt is to pay for it forever [hence the doctrine of eternal punishment in hell]. Christ perfectly suffered in our stead on the account of His eternal nature. For the eternal Son to suffer separation from the Father [if even for a moment] serves as a substitute for the eternal suffering of finite beings who owe the debt of sin to an eternal God. This is a very interesting way to look at it.

Forlines, however, never stops to ask or answer the very important question: "Can there ever be real separation within the triune God?". This is the question which I think cannot allow for this type of understanding of penal satisfaction. I cannot at this time accept any interpretation of the atonement that would cause a rift in the trinity. I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

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